Transcript
Announcer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of Cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.

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Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Kylie Robison, who is currently a Business Information Systems student at Sacramento State, targeting graduation in May of 2021. Kylie, welcome to the show.

Kylie: Thank you for having me.

Corey: So, you do more than that, too. Student is sort of the identifier people slap on themselves. I get that, but you also are currently a technology reporter for the State Hornet, which is either a newspaper of some kind, or possibly California now as an official insect.

Kylie: [laugh]. Yeah, no, my school mascot is a hornet. So, I joined the State Hornet. They're a student-run news organization. But we don't have a newspaper anymore; we went online fully, I think a year or two ago.

Corey: Fantastic. It's definitely more eco-friendly, and the counterpoint is, is that when you publish something that people don't want to read, it's harder to steal all the issues when it's online.

Kylie: Exactly.

Corey: You also work in IT services for Covered California.

Kylie: Yes, I do. It's my first IT job. Before that, I was making sandwiches at Beach Hut Deli.

Corey: Wonderful. Do you ever miss the sandwiches?

Kylie: Oh, definitely. I was just there the other day. You know, service in IT or service for food is about the same anyways.

Corey: I look at what you're doing now, and I've been getting echoes back to when I started my career. I was doing a bunch of different things at once, in similar ways. And I still have this problem now, when people ask—like, we're stuck in an elevator. It’s, “So, what do you do?” And to give an honest answer, I have to pull the emergency stop and talk for five minutes.

It’s, what's the context—oh, like at neighborhood block parties, I tell people I'm some weird kind of accountant because I don't want to become the neighborhood computer repair person. That isn't going to go well. But it's hard because when you have so many different hats that you wear, it's difficult to nail down the, “What do you do?” Story.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely.

Corey: So, for those of us who didn't graduate from college, and even when I tried to and didn't go so well, that was still 20, 25 years ago. What is Business Information Systems? That was never a term that I ever saw back when I was failing out of academia?

Kylie: Yeah. I wanted to be a comp sci major, but I was afraid of how long I would be in college paying for my own tuition; I didn't think it was a viable route. So, I just became a business major, and I looked into the concentrations at Sacramento State and they had Information Systems, which I thought was a great route because business and comp sci together just sounded like a great opportunity. So, information systems in business. Right now, for example, my classes are Information Security, databases—so we learned SQL, stuff like that—what else, project management. So, it's just the intersection of both subjects I would say.

Corey: Oh, my god, that sounds wonderful. I was attending the University of Maine back in 2000, 2001. And the comp sci folks there were just—no disrespect. I get it. A lot of the universities struggle with this, but these were folks who hadn't updated the curriculum in 10 years, and they're talking about what the digital world looks like as the dotcom bubble is exploding around, and on some level in the back of your mind, you're stuck with, “If you know how this stuff works, why are you here, and not, you know, going to found the next MySpace,” because that was the thing people cared about back then. It became a very strange, like, a sense of dissonance. The idea that there's now a curriculum that blends that stuff rather than forcing people to forge it on their own, just sounds incredibly valuable.

Kylie: Yeah, definitely. I would say that getting a college education is a lot more valuable now in terms of comp sci, perhaps than it used to be. So, I was on Twitter, and I talked about how I had this Python course. And someone was like, “I would have never imagined learning Python when I was in college.” Which was fascinating to me.

Corey: Oh, that was absolutely never on the roadmap. When I was doing my comp site courses, they were focusing on assembly, which told me that, okay, I'm not a computer. Good to know. And they were focusing on Pascal because this newfangled thing called Java, which just didn't seem to really be where they wanted to go yet. Yeah, spoiler: I don't care how old you are, Java has never been a newfangled thing. It was born old.

But it was a challenge. I mean, it sounds here, like I'm sitting here complaining about back in the era of the invention of the wheel. But it was at the time, it was challenging; people had to stumble their own way through it. Now, it's not just that there are more programs out there, but those programs themselves have evolved to at least somehow embrace the modern reality that there are so many different paths that are either directly into tech, or heavily influenced by tech, or tangential to tech. I don't think there are too many paths that never touch tech at all, but I learn something new every day.

There are multiple paths to walk, and not having a degree myself for my 20s, I was incredibly defensive, and I was very dismissive about the idea of higher education. It took me a long time to realize I'm a hell of an outlier. If you have a degree, life is easier—in a career sense—than if you don’t. There's really no arguing that. I had to talk my way around it more times than I care to remember.

Kylie: Yeah. I think there's a lot of different paths you can take. And it just depends what works best for you. I know people who don't do well in school but are incredibly smart individuals. One of my smartest friends, who was a computer engineer, he worked at Intel during college, and he had, like, a 2.5 GPA. It's just, school isn't for everyone. It just depends what path you want to take.

Corey: And I think that there's also a bit of a misunderstanding these days, especially when we see economic downturns, where people have a degree, they have trouble finding a job because, spoiler, it's hard to find a job, full stop. I don't care who you are or what you do, it’s always a challenge. And the response that we've basically beaten into people is you should go back to school and get another degree. Yeah, great plan. I always hated that model.

Talk to someone who's doing the thing you think you want to do next. That's a good idea. Ask them, what should I do from where I am to get to where you are? And if the answer is, “You need to have a different degree,” okay, then it's something to consider. You're not going to be able to maneuver around your lack of degree if you want to be—oh, I don't know—a surgeon.

But if you want to go work in machine learning, for example, a PhD might not be a requirement. Maybe it'll help, maybe it won't. I don't know, I'm certainly no expert in that field. But I would talk to people who are and see what they have to say. There's a lot to be said for getting advice from people who've been down that path.

Kylie: Exactly. Yeah.

Corey: At least, that's how I see the world.

Kylie: That's the advice I've been given, too because at this age, at the end of my bachelor's, I'm thinking, “Should I get a master's? Will I be more employable? I'm too scared to leave college because what if I fail?” And if I ask people in the industry, “Should I get a master's?” And they're like, “No. I don't have a master’s, none of my co-workers have master's, you don't need a master's to be successful.” So, yeah.

Corey: Yeah. I've toyed with the idea of getting an Executive MBA or something like that, just because right now the highest official credential I have is an eighth-grade education, which, now it's a funny talking story, but it was challenging to get through my 20s. It was, great, how do you do this? It’s like, tell a very different story. And I change the subject, and I’m great at dissembling.

But what I really appreciate is that what you're doing, and your whole bio right now is touching on a whole bunch of things that resonate. My first job, when I was in the process of basically bombing my way out of school, was IT service desk. And a recurring theme on the show has been where does the next generation of engineer come from in the world of Cloud? I became whatever the hell you'd call me these days in the ops world by being an old grumpy Unix systems administrator because there's no other kind. Those jobs aren't really there anymore. I learned so much of how I view technology, troubleshooting from my helpdesk days. It teaches patterns that are incredibly valuable. But those jobs don't seem to exist in nearly the numbers that they once did.

Kylie: Yeah, I would agree. And in Sacramento, it's impossible to get an IT job here that's not with the state. And that's just something people in my major have accepted that you just need a state job to work in IT.

Corey: I… well, why not? I'll tell stories that irritate people, why not? My first breakthrough role was at a university—private—in California, where I basically bluffed my way through the technical interviewer, the screener who was supposed to verify my answers was out sick that day, they really liked my personality [snort], and they wound up offering me the job on the spot. And I was excited because finally, I was working in education because the benefit then—given my personality that should come as no surprise for anyone—I couldn't get fired. The problem was that I learned very quickly, I was working with a bunch of people who couldn't get fired.

And it became frustrating, and the politics of it drove me nuts. And then I idly talked to some companies in the commercial space, and it was much more compelling, or at least it sounded that way at the time. And I really haven't been back ever since. But it's a strange feeling, going from IT and the Service Desk, and then transitioning that into more either engineering-focused roles, or product-or project-based roles. It was a lot of fun, and I know a lot of people who did the exact same thing.

But I know other people who have been working in the IT service desk for 20 years. And it's always been strange to me seeing where people decide to remain, happily so, or where they decide I want something different. For me, the problem I always had with the Service Desk was, it's hard for me to troubleshoot computers misbehaving without a blistering stream of profanity. And you can't really do that on the phone with a paying customer. More than once anyway.

Kylie: Oh, you know, the paying customers are the ones who have profanity most of the time, for me.

Corey: It's two very hard skills: it’s, one, fix misbehaving technology, and two, the polite to someone who's currently being a rude bastard.

Kylie: Yeah.

Corey: It's very hard for me to walk and chew gum at the same time, with that.

Kylie: It's so true, yeah. I was just talking to someone on Twitter about this the other day about how at IT service desk, the most mean users are the ones that work in legal. I don't know what the correlation is there, but I've been cussed out way too many times by lawyers.

Corey: Oh, me, too. I married one, and the last argument I ever won was, will you marry me? It was all downhill from there. I found the same thing with professors. And the attitude that I got was that, “I’m—have a PhD. I am a world leading expert in this very narrow thing that is incredibly hard. They don't even offer PhDs in fixing my computer, so how hard could it really be? Therefore you're an idiot and I'm smart,” and 45 minutes into the conversation, we realize that they're suffering a power outage. So, it's a difficult problem to wind up overcoming because you can't put people in their place. At least I couldn't. I'm hopeful—maybe—that that has changed since the last time I worked in a service desk. Are you allowed to swear at the customers?

Kylie: You know, I’ve considered it, asked my boss. But it's a firm no, at this time.

Corey: Yeah, that's okay. There's always a next year plan. So, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on this show, which is ostensibly about the business of cloud computing, is a single line in your bio that I bet you may have almost thrown in as filler, but I strongly disagree if that's the case, where you are the president of your school's ski and snowboard club. And I think there is no better metaphor for cloud computing than hurtling down the side of the mountain into a bunch of trees. Tell me more about that.

Kylie: Yeah, that is one of my proudest accomplishments right now is being president of my ski and snowboard club. Just a wonderful group of people that I met in college, and I thought I can make this better. So, I became president last fall.

Corey: So, you can't even talk about it without using the word ‘fall.’

Kylie: Yeah. I'm still learning actually, even as the president, which I think is a really good way to get people to join because every time I tell someone that I'm the president of ski and snowboard club, they're like, “I can't stand on board without falling. It's impossible.” And I'm like, “Yeah, me too. Exactly.” It's really hard but fulfilling to say the least.

Corey: So, ski or snowboard?

Kylie: Snowboard. We do not like skiers in this household.

Corey: Gotcha. That's probably the things we're going to have a bit of agreement on. I can't stand up on a snowboard, but back in one of the boarding schools I was thrown out of, I was briefly competitive on the skiing side. It was fun. I was basically skiing because I was old enough to walk, turned 18, and then hadn't ever been back to a mountain until 2016.

It comes back again. A lot has changed, though. It turns out that everyone wears a helmet now when you're skiing, which is a new thing for me. That was never anything that was done. And at first, it's like, “Heh, look at all these little lilies who are terrified of hitting their head.”

And then I did some math and it's, “Wait a minute, I'm hurtling down the mountain about, eh, 30 miles an hour. Those trees and rocks are awfully hard,” and, “Oh my god, how have I never worn a helmet doing this?” It was very clearly one of those things where, huh, with a little bit of critical analysis, maybe realize it's not the things are safer and everything's sugar-coated these days. It's that we were doing things that were freaking dangerous, once upon a time.

Kylie: Yeah, I'm not going to lie. Probably a lot of people listening to this who are in the tech field are skiers. But yeah, as a snowboarder. We don't wear helmets. It's unfortunate, but I'm not going very fast. I'm still on bunnies. But another fun fact about me and my family is that my uncle on my mom's side, he was a pretty famous skateboarder and snowboarder in the 80s and 90s.

Corey: Wow. So, something else that you mentioned, almost as a throwaway, which I never had the patience to do much work with is gardening, which is odd. Everything else in your bio talks about technology, and leadership, and hurtling down the side of a mountain, and information security, which we'll touch on in a minute. And then gardening throws in there. I have a brown thumb and everything I touch dies, which means it's super problematic now that I have two children. But there's something to be said especially during this interminable year of quarantine. I mean, I have plants in my office now, and other people in my house have strict instructions not to let me kill them. But tell me more about gardening.

Kylie: Yeah. I know the tech field has a lot of inside plant, office plant gardens going on. I have not gotten any inside plants because I live with four college students. I don't want them to kill my plants. So, we have a pretty big backyard and a lot of pots that are cemented into the ground.

So, I thought, why don't I just start growing vegetables? And it has been incredibly relaxing. Tomatoes, kale, broccoli, spinach, just anything and everything, I try to grow in the backyard. Snapdragons; that was really fun. But yeah, that's just been my adventure. It's a really great hobby to have.

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Corey: I found that I'm happier now that I have growing living things in my office. I look around—I think I have three plants. I think a fourth is on order. And it just, it feels nicer. I would say it ties the room together, but I think that's a rug. There's just something nice about having them here, and I was never a plant person.

Kylie: Really?

Corey: For better or worse. Yeah. Again, when you're very good at killing things, it's hard to become attached to something you're bad at, at least in my case. You know, other than technology. But that's a separate argument entirely.

Kylie: Yeah. No, I agree. I have fake plants inside my room just because I love the way plants bring life into a room, just make you feel more positive. But… someday. I'll get real plants someday, but not anytime soon because I don't know if you saw, but one of my roommate’s dogs ate my dinner.

Corey: I did not see that. But first, was it something that was safe for dogs? Important things first.

Kylie: Oh, very safe. They had a delicious—

Corey: Oh, good. And good for that pupper.

Kylie: Oh, yeah. And it was two pounds of raw meat that I was going to use for my dinner that they ate clean off the tray. But that is the exact reason I don't have plants in here because they would all die. [laugh].

Corey: Yeah, we have special problems here where I used to be a dog person before I had kids. I was basically nesting before I was ready to have children, so I wound up fostering dogs for a while. And there was this belligerent little Chihuahua mix at one of the rescue events that just barked every week at people, angrily because that's how she decided to get adopted, and that's how I wound up with Ethel my little teacup Chihuahua. She's 15 years old now, but she's not really a dog; she's a malevolent weasel. And her entire shtick is stealing food.

It's really a challenge because she's this little 15-pound dog, 12-pound dog, something like that, who can just coincidentally—despite being 15 years old—jump onto the counter. It's like a cat and a dog had an unholy offspring thing that can fly. Just the worst little dog in the world. I love her, but she's terrible. And at some point, I've had to learn how to keep food away from her.

That was fine. We established an uneasy truce. Then the kids came along. And it's one of those oh, great. So, if I have to wind up worrying about everything, it's worst case, “Dog. Eat what you want. Worst case, you'll die a little sooner.” I’m not going for the world's oldest dog here. But at some point, you have to let go and prioritize. Pick the battles, as it were.

Kylie: Oh, yeah, definitely.

Corey: Speaking of picking battles, you have a strong interest in infosec, which is pretty clear to anyone who spends more than 10 minutes looking at your Twitter profile. Tell me what about that appeals to you?

Kylie: I think it appeals to the empathetic characteristics in me. When I saw how users and technology interacted, I just saw all of the things that could go wrong. And then I just started writing about them in the State Hornet. My first article was about the Iowa caucuses, and that technology being so faulty. Recently, I wrote about voting technology, and the security there is so poor.

The way people and technology intersect, I just have way more empathy for people than computers and corporations. So, I want people to be protected. And I noticed college students also do not understand the technology they're using half the time, don't really care to. So, I thought it was important to write about it, tell them like, “Hey, this is what TicTok is; this is what Respondus Monitor is; this is what you're agreeing to.” So, security, in that sense has just been really fascinating to learn about for me.

Corey: I guess the strangest thing I've heard on this show, in the however many episodes we've done so far, is one of the things you just said, which is, “Oh, I’m really into information security because of empathy.” I'm sorry, I know I'm going to irritate people who are listening to this, but I started off dabbling rather heavily in infosec for a while, and I got out of it because the community was a freaking trash fire. It was all about who the smartest person in the room is, and glorified punching down. When someone made a mistake, it was all about, “Aha, I got the bastard,” rather than, “Help me understand where you're seeing this so we can all learn together.” It was absolutely a trash fire of a community.

I stopped going to infosec conferences. I really stopped paying attention to security in an industry sense. Not stop paying attention to security engineering sense, which it seems every company with a budget loves to do. But it just became such a draining, awful experience that I found there were other places that were more aligned with what I wanted to be doing. Is that no longer the case? Are there pockets within infosec that are better than that now that I'm not seeing, or is there something else.

Kylie: That's funny because I don't even know what communities I'm in, generally. I just follow who I find interesting, who talks about important things. I have seen that punching down, that toxic community, and I've seen that community attacking people I follow who are prominent security—often women or non-binary people who have a large platform in infosec, and just constantly attacked. So, I have chosen not to delve deeper in the infosec community for that reason. It just doesn't feel like a welcoming environment, and I feel like I would survive without opening myself up to that type of toxicity.

Corey: And to be fair, I went to a few of the conferences, DEF CON, which is probably not a great place to get started. The industry events were always much more focused around checkbox compliance in my experience, and it feels like CSOs’—chief information security officers’—primary role is sort of to be an ablative armor for a company so that they can get fired when there's a breach. It's a cynical perspective, I know. And there's a lot of nuance to it, and I'm not deeply steeped in that space anymore, and that's okay. But as of the time is recording, I recently did a Twitter thread about infosec myths: “Rotate your access credentials every 30 to 60 days.”

Yeah, if your cloud credentials get compromised, you'll find out in 20 seconds and it's going to be expensive. It just feels like busy work for a lot of those things. And there's a lot of myths and, effectively, security theater that go around it. And I figured I was going to get torn to pieces, but you're right, the responses were mostly positive. And even the stuff I intentionally put in there to annoy people didn't really seem to trip anything. So, it may be that I'm bringing old prejudices into a new renaissance of infosec culture. I hope so.

Kylie: That's so funny. Yeah, I would hope so too. I have a lot of hope for the community. I actually have, I think, a bit of naive hopefulness for the industry itself. I constantly think that people in this field are trying to build technology for a better world, non-biased technology. That's my hope, and actually, what I see is my truth. So, sometimes Twitter can damper that for me.

Corey: Talk to me a little bit about Twitter. Back when I was starting out in my career, Twitter didn't exist, which was fortunate. I did not have anything approaching the social wherewithal that I do today. I made a lot of shitty jokes that were punching down, I was not as kind or empathetic as I want to be as a person. And that's a problem.

And, for better or worse in that era, there's some IRC chats, there's a few Usenet posts, but there's not a sort of system of record where one day people decide to go data mining and, “Haha, remember these embarrassing things you said? Oh, here's some career-ruining things you've done in the past.” It's nice to have that freedom to do it. But when I started this whole thing, about four years ago now, I had I think, less than 2000 Twitter followers. You're over 5000 at this point and just getting started. You have a bigger audience. More eyes are upon you. What's it like?

Kylie: Some days good; some days bad, definitely. I use the block button liberally all the time.

Corey: I've started doing it a lot just because life is too short to be arguing with jerks. Also, punching down is never a good thing, so when I see something incendiary responded to me by someone who has six followers, and their name looks like a bot account, I'm not going to bother. Why give an asshole a platform? Block. Move on.

Kylie: Yeah, whenever I see people arguing with prominent people in tech, actually, I'll go ahead and block them, everyone who follows them, if I have the time, everyone who'd like their tweet. I just don't have time. And that has saved me a lot of time because not as many people argue with me and quality filters have really helped, honestly.

Corey: The thing that really throws me, at least, really it was eye-opening for me, is that I used to believe that it's okay to insult people, yell at them, et cetera, as long as you're not punching down. The problem is, is in some context, no matter who you're talking to, you can punch down and not realize it. I've inadvertently punched down at multinational companies before, and that doesn't feel great. When people try and emulate some of the whole snarky sarcastic thing that does well on Twitter, very often, they just end up being mean.

Kylie: That's true, yeah. Sometimes my fault with Twitter is I don't take it so seriously because I'm 22. I see it as a social media platform, as it is. But something I've been reminded of before is that it's more than a social media platform, at least for me, right now in my life; I have to take a little bit more seriously. Someone recently told me I have to treat it like LinkedIn, which I thought was funny.

And I still don't think I can successfully take it seriously, and I don't really plan to because that's not my personality, but I will never, hopefully, punch down. I try not to argue with people at all, actually because it's just a waste of my energy. I used to spend almost all of my time in high school, arguing with people I went to high school with about feminism, meninism at the time. And Black Lives Matter was just starting when I was in high school, so I spent a lot of time defending these things I thought I cared so much about. But at the end of the day, I just realized there's no reason to be arguing the way that I did on Twitter. I just need to pick my battles, move on, use the block button.

Corey: Let me Nostradamus this for a second. At some point, you're going to punch down, you're going to say something that hurt someone's feelings, or is taken away you didn't intend. And I used to live in fear of that. But what I've learned is that when you get it wrong, that's an opportunity to demonstrate who you are. And that in many ways is a better glimpse into humanity than if you hadn't ever screwed up at all if that makes any sense.

Like, I wound up doing a Hitler reacts video—a while back—to his AWS bill. And it was fine. It was funny. I got a kick out of it. Some people were, “Oh, you shouldn't make light of Hitler.” Yeah, I'm the Jewish grandson of a survivor. Shut up. We all have our own relationships with it. That's mine. Don't like it? Move on.

But what I screwed up on was there's one line where someone who is a woman speaks to another woman and the dialogue line I used was, “Oh, that's okay. I get gigabytes and terabytes confused all the time, too.” And it worked out well. It fit the flow. It was great. It never occurred to me that that is how it might come across. But it did.

And as soon as I found out about this, I had two paths. I could either double down and, “No, it's funny. You can deal with it,” or, “Holy shit, people feel bad.” So, I took the video private and did a whole thread on, I screwed up. I'm sorry. I'll do better.

And I haven't made that particular mistake since. And no one's right all the time. For trying to pretend otherwise is just lunacy. It gives you a chance to demonstrate character, I guess that's how I see it. Maybe that's stupid and hopelessly naive and probably overprivileged. But that's how I see it.

Kylie: I like to live my life hopelessly naive. It's brought me far, so far. But yeah, I actually had an incident like this recently, and my Twitter was pure mayhem. When I made a joke about teaching computer nerds how to communicate properly. I think that's actually how you ended up following me.

Corey: Entirely possible. My decision matrix for do I follow someone or not is generally whimsical. It's one of those, “Oh, that's a fun tweet. I'll follow.” Other times it's, “Huh, this person's been making great tweets, and I always like and retweet them, and they showed up on my feed for three months now and I've never followed them.” And there's no rhyme or reason.

If you're listening to this and wish I would follow you, well, we all have dreams. It’s probably not anything personal. But maybe it is. So, social media is a weird, strange, different thing. To wrap this up a little bit. You are doing an awful lot of things, but you're also coming up on a transformation. In May. You're graduating. What's next for you?

Kylie: Oh, so many things hopefully. Right now I've just been applying to jobs, interviewing. We'll see what I catch at the end of the day. I'm hoping to land a job in information security, maybe network engineering would be wonderful. I have so many ideas. I'm not sure which way it'll go. Maybe even tech journalism, if I can land a job at a publication. So, many options; still deciding.

Corey: It definitely seems like there's a wide world ahead as far as different opportunities for what you can focus on. I'm curious to hear what goes for you. So, if people want to follow along on your journey, see what you're up to, and hear your scintillating wit, where can they find you?

Kylie: My Twitter is at @kylie_robison. My website, kylierobison.com. It's nothing fancy. I just needed to put it together so I could answer questions like this. But yeah, Twitter is the main way to reach me.

Corey: Fantastic. And we'll of course throw a link in the [00:30:50 show notes]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.

Kylie: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Corey.

Corey: Kylie Robison, current student who does all the things. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and tell me why I'm wrong to prefer skiing over snowboarding.

Announcer: This has been this week’s episode of Screaming in the Cloud. You can also find more Corey at screaminginthecloud.com, or wherever fine snark is sold.

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